Freeman Interview: Wan Runnan

Born October 29, 1946, in Jiangsu province, Wan Runnan was in college studying engineering when he had his first taste of repression. With the fanaticism of the Cultural Revolution sweeping the country, Mr. Wan was forced to interrupt his studies by the authorities and sent, without reason, to labor as a railway worker in the countryside. He eventually graduated from Qinghua University and went on to a position with the National Acade my of Natural Sciences. Mr. Wan grew increasingly frustrated with the Communist system and began to look for ways to promote a free market in China. In 1984he started Stone Corporation, which produces computer software and English-Chinese word processors. Starting out with a loan of 20,000yuan,Stone CorDaniel R. Pruzin, who conducted this interview, is a jour nalist based in Paris. He holds a Master of Science irt International Relations from the London School of Eco nomics.

poration grew rapidly and reached sales of 8 mil lion yuanin 1989.The company presently employs 2,000 workers and has branches in Hong Kong, Australia, France, and California's Silicon Valley: Stone is credited as being the largest privately owned business in China, which earned Wan Run nan the title of "China's leading businessman." When the pro-democracy protests began in the spring of 1989,Mr. Wan provided material support for the demonstrators in Tiananmen Square and helped organize negotiations between the students and government. He became convinced that the Communists would crack down if the square wasn't evacuated, but his warnings to the students went unheeded and the massacre soon followed. Mr. Wan decided to flee after the June 4 crack down and is now wanted by the Chinese authori ties. A month after the massacre Wan Runnan, along with prominent exiles such as Wuer Kaixi and Yan Jiaqui, met in Paris to call for the creation of the Federation for a Democratic China. At the FDC's inaugural conference last September, Mr. Wan was appointed Secretary-General of the organization.

He was the main force behind the FDC's adoption of a resolution calling for a free market in China and has become the most vocal advocate for pri vate enterprise. On January 17, 1990,having just returned from a six-week trip abroad and a meeting with New York Congressman Stephen Solarz, Wan Runnan spoke with Paris-based journalist Daniel Pruzin at FDC headquarters in Paris. The Chinese-English translation was provided by Lan Dong, Secretary of Information for the FDC. Q: I'd first like to ask what inspired you to start up Stone Corporation? Did you face many obsta cles? A: I would say that the main reason for starting up Stone Corporation was not to make money but to explore the ways and means of reforming China through free market means. And needless to say, there were a lot of initial obstacles from the gov ernment to overcome! Q: What were the problems that needed reforming? A: The main problem that came to my mind had to do with ownership. In China, the means of production are mostly state-owned. For example, in the countryside you have something called the Wan Runnan self-contract responsibility system, in which land is owned by the state but individual farmers are responsible for how the land is used. They fill state quotas, but the farmers can choose what to grow and can keep what profits are made from the sur plus.

The problem, though, is that the land is still state-owned. As long as private ownership is not established in China, it will be very hard to stimu late the economy and expand upon this initial development. Q: Your involvement with Stone Corporation indicates that you lost faith in the Communist sys tem. When did you become a believer in the free market? A: To be frank, a long time ago. Before the Cul tural Revolution I began to disbelieve in the Com munist economic system. Q: How did you first become involved with the pro-democracy movement? A: Well,like many other common citizens I was initially just an observer who was sympathetic with the students' demands. I was inspired by their bravery. I then decided to get involved by supply ing the demonstrators at Tiananmen Square with food and drink. Q: But why did you get involved? After all, you had a successful company and served as a role model for Deng Xiaoping's modernization pro gram. Why did you risk all of this?

A: To understand this you have to understand my background. As I said, the reason I started Stone Corporation wasn't to make money but to 177 explore the ways and means of reforming China politically and economically. I also established a research institute to study political and economic issues. My partner at this institute, Mr. Cao Siyuan, used to work with the economic reform commis sion of the state. He was the first to propose Chi na's bankruptcy laws, the monitoring system, and the auditing system at the People's Congress [Chi na's representative body]. Unfortunately, this very prestigious scholar was arrested after the June 4 crackdown. Then you have to look at the demonstrations last spring. During the Tiananmen movement, pri vate businesses were among the most active sup porters of the students. The students had a genuine trust in us; when they had problems or difficulties they came to us for help.

So as you can see, my involvement in private enterprise hasn't been for personal gain but has always had political and economic purposes behind it. Q: At one crucial point in the pro-democracy movement last spring you played a major role in arranging a secret meeting between the student demonstrators and then-Communist Party Gener al Secretary Zhao Ziyang.1 This was just before the arrival of Mikhail Gorbachev for a state visit, and the government wanted the students out of Tiananmen Square to avoid public embarrass ment. Why did the government turn to you to arrange the meeting? A: As a matter of fact, the government didn't ask me to arrange the meeting. I, along with others, took the initiative to arrange the meeting out of humanitarian concerns-we were afraid things were getting out of control and that violence would erupt. I actually helped to arrange three secret meet ings between the students and the government.

The first one took place at the International Hotel, the second at Beijing Hotel, and the third at Stone Hotel. I toldthestudentleadersat the meetingthatthe square would have to be evacuated, and eventually they came to agree with me. But there was such confusion at the time! At the peak of the demon strations there were students from about 75 differ ent universities, which made it difficult to establish order. So even though the student leaders agreed with me to evacuate the square, they couldn't con178 THE FREEMAN • MAY 1990 trol the demonstrators and couldn't get them out of the square. Q: It's sadly ironic then that everybody agreed to evacuate the square in order to calm things down but couldn't. A: Yes,indeed. We had a slogan at that moment called "The Four Senses." The slogan was: "Stu dents back to school! Troops back to their bar racks! Repeal martial law! Restore order!" This was our position at the time and not the govern ment's.

Q: Did you have a feeling that everything would end in tragedy, or did you still believe the pro-democracy movement would triumph? A: I did believe that a tragedy would happen. I even told this to Mr. Wang Dan, one of the student leaders. I asked him to listen to me, to follow my advice, because I knew the Communists and was mUCh, much more experienced in dealing with them. Unfortunately, he didn't believe me.2 Q: At what point did you feel that everything was lost? The student leader Shen Tong said in a recent interview that he knew it was all over by May 14,the day the students failed to evacuate the square before Gorbachev's arrival. A: I thought that tragedy was inevitable the day martial law was declared, on May 19. Before mar tiallaw, there was still a balance between the two forces struggling against each other. At this stage it was still possible for either power to overcome the other. The declaration of martial law signaled the decline in influence of General Secretary Zhao, who was still an advocate of a peaceful resolution.

After that, those who advocated force gained the upper hand and the balance tipped in favor of the government. Q: You were in Beijing when the June 4 mas sacre took place. What was your initial reaction? A: My first reaction was simply,"It's too tragic for China." I was at my office at the time, waiting by the telephone for information. Staff members of my company who were at the square ran back and reported everything to me instantly. Q: Did you decide to Dee China at that point? A: No, not as early as that. After the massacre I first made some day-to-day arrangements at Stone Corporation, then decided to get out of Bei jing and stay in southern China for a while. I had already planned a business trip to Hong Kong to visit my company branch, and it was during my stay there that I decided to escape. Q: You are currently wanted by the Beijing authorities. What are the official charges against you?

A: (laughing) Well, I think the official charges are something like "planner, organizer, and agita tor of the counterrevolutionary movement." But all we did was to support the students' demands and call for an emergency session of the People's Congress. We wanted the students to withdraw from Tiananmen Square, but Deng Xiaoping wanted to settle the problem with tanks and machine guns. We advocated the settlement of the issue within a legal framework, that is, an emer gency session of the People's Congress. We did nothing wrong! Q: Let me tum to your involvement with the Federation for a Democratic China. You are rec ognized as the organization's leading advocate for a free market. How widelysupported is the notion of a free market among Chinese people? There seemed to be few demonstrators in Tiananmen Square calling for such an idea. A: I'd like to start off by saying that the advo cacies of a political organization such as the FDC should be different from the advocacies of the masses. For example, at Tiananmen Square the people knew only what they were against,not what they were for. A political organization, however, has to go beyond that, to advocate what should be built, what should be established.

As far as whether a free market is supported by most Chinese people, I think you should take a look at the enthusiasm within China for the self contract responsibility system. The level of sup port for this system is a sure indication that many Chinese want a free market. Q: Is it difficult promoting economic reform in an organization primarily concerned with a politi cal goal, i.e., democracy? A: At the inaugural conference of the FDC last September, support for the free market was writ ten into the organization's charter. It was written into the charter because a majority of our memFREEMAN INTERVIEW: WAN RUNNAN 179 bers voted in favor of it. It's as much a goal of the FDC as democracy or respect for human rights. Q: Let me pose a critical question. Some have complained that the FDC has failed to make an impact within China. It has also become apparent that rifts have developed between members, with some criticizingthe student leadership in the FDC as being too immature. The FDe vice-president Wuer Kaixi decided to take a five-month leave because of complaints over his personal behavior.3 Has the FDC failed to live up to its potential?

A: Well, this sort of criticism signifies that peo ple have very high expectations for the FDC, oth erwise they wouldn't criticize us like that. I agree that the students are young and that they are still learning, but I'd like to point out that they are learning. The students were very brave in Tianan men Square, and they enjoyed admiration from around the world. They are symbolic of the Tiananmen Square movement. I'd also like to point out that Mr. Wuer Kaixi is outstanding among the student leaders who are now political exiles. He's been very cooperative and has worked very hard learning new things with our people. Q: You recently returned from a six-week visit to the U.S., Japan, Australia, and Taiwan. What was the purpose of this trip? A: I had two purposes for my visit to these countries. First of all I wanted to develop the over seas organizations related in some way to the FDC. The second purpose was to establish con tacts between the FDC and the governments and people of these four nations. And I can go as far as to say that on both points my trip was very success ful.

While I was in the U.S., I met a number of Con gressmen, among them the leaders of both parties and the chairmen of the human rights committees in the House and the Senate. I also had the oppor tunity to visit San Francisco and Los Angeles to have discussions with overseas Chinese in both cities. I'm happy to say that I was given an enthu siastic reception. Q: The Bush administration has maintained that positive gestures from the Chinese authorities would result from the Scowcroft mission [U.S. National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft visited Beijing on a secret mission in December 1989]and would prove that the decision to resume contacts was right. In light of such moves as the lifting of martial law,the release of some 500 pro-democra cy demonstrators from prison, and the toning down of anti-U.S. rhetoric, has the Bush adminis tration been proved right? A: I think that all of what has happened recent 1y in Beijing was actually designed by the Chinese authorities to prove that the Bush administration was right, to justify Scowcroft's visit to Beijing.

We have issued a number of statements saying that the lifting of martial law is false. It's only in name, not in substance. We have ample evidence to indicate that the army simply changed their uni forms with the government police, and that the government police have become plain-clothes agents. Nothing has really changed. The machinery of crackdown continues to exist. The persecution of pro-democracy demonstrators goes unabated. There are still secret trials, execu tions, and the continued claim by the government that the June 4 movement was nothing more than an "anti-revolutionary rebellion." To the wise observer, it is clear that nothing has changed. I believed that some of the pro-democracy demonstrators would be released. But what the Western democracies can't understand is that in order to appear better in the public eye the Com munist regime will do almost anything. They'll build fake towns, they'll dress up a prison. I'll give you an example at how skillful they are at making false appearances. When President Nixon first vis ited Beijing he was invited to visit a store called the Dung Dang Grocery Market. The store was filled with happy customers, each carrying a chicken. A few reporters, however, noticed that the customers weren't paying for their goods. They followed the customers out the front door and saw that they were sneaking around and reentering the store through a back door. There they quietly rejoined the crowd of customers, chicken in hand. The "cus tomers" turned out to be store employees dressed up for the occasion.

There's also the time when President Nixon was visiting the Great Wall. Upon arrival he "sponta neously" met a group of colorfully dressed young people playing cards, dancing, and so forth. They approached Mr. Nixon and treated him with great respect. But one of the reporters who came along was suspicious. After Nixon left, he stayed behind 180 THE FREEMAN • MAY 1990 and watched as the group took off their colorful clothes,lined up, and marchedaway. And now the Communistauthorities are play ing another game with the Bush administration. It'stragicthat the Bushadministrationis not aware of this. The crux of the problem is not the partial releaseof those arrested.The problemis, willthey release all the politicalprisoners,and will they re evaluate the 1989 democratic movement? Will they try to put the butchers of TiananmenSquare on trial? That's the problem. Q: Are you frustrated with the Bush adminis tration'sattitude towardthe pro-democracymove ment or do you feel your long-term interests are beinglooked after?

A: As an independent organization we must rely upon ourselves,on our own initiative,on our own strength. We cannot rely upon anyone else. The Bushadministrationhasitsownpracticalcon cerns.In a sense,we are prepared for this.Sincewe are prepared to rely upon ourselves, there's no point in feelingfrustrated.We don't feel any sense of betrayal. Q: I'd like to ask you about Chineseeconomic atTairs.At this time China is undergoingits most seriouseconomiccrisissincethe reforms of Deng Xiaopingwere introduced in the early1980s.Bei jing authorities recently introduced an austerity plan which,among other things, prescribed con troUedprices,strengthened state enterprises,and increasedtaxeson businesses.Isthisausterityplan the answerto China'siUs? A: Even before the June massacre, during Marchin fact, the Chineseauthoritieswere draw ing up plansfor austerity.At that time I expressed the opinionthat the austeritypolicywas wrongfor the Chineseeconomy.Not that the Chineseecon omywasn'till;I justthoughtthat the medicinethey wanted to use was wrong. It's not going to solve China'S'problems.